PMC Usability Meeting 20100423

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Date: 2010-04-23
Time: 2PM GMT
Venue: irc #adempiere-team
Support Spreadsheet: Adempiere PMC Usability
Chat times in GMT-5


(09:00:10) CarlosRuiz: Hi
(09:00:39) red1: hi
(09:01:18) red1: CarlosRuiz: sorry.. i missed earlier meeting
(09:01:32) red1: i was out from meeting place towards town
(09:01:54) CarlosRuiz: do you mean functional? you were there
(09:01:57) kai7 [~Kai7@port-87-193-237-134.static.qsc.de] entered the channel.
(09:02:24) kai7: Hi everyone
(09:02:51) CarlosRuiz: Hi Kai
(09:02:52) trifon: hi from me too
(09:03:05) red1: hi .. whats the meeting now about? is it usability?
(09:03:34) CarlosRuiz: yep - usability
(09:04:12) trifon: one question: by usability here you mean User interface usability? or usability of UI from functional point?
(09:04:19) kai7: OK, do we have an agenda?
(09:04:36) red1: may i also ask if its ok to discuss Govt Usability? As i just concluded a very positive meeting this morning
(09:04:55) red1: they inviting me to present roadmap for changing from SAP to ADempiere
(09:04:59) kai7: What is Govt Usability?
(09:05:02) CarlosRuiz: trifon -> both
(09:05:02) CarlosRuiz: kai -> not yet
(09:05:05) red1: and would like to visit Germany
(09:05:22) kai7: No problem: Planes are landing again. :-)
(09:05:35) red1: The Accountant General Office of the govt feels helpless with SAP and is advised to consult ADempiere
(09:05:44) kai7: Good.
(09:05:54) red1: i told them that there is no first yet in the world of ADempiere by govt
(09:05:57) kai7: But what are their special need regarding usability?
(09:05:59) red1: and Malaysia will be the first
(09:06:11) red1: they want to understand the impact of change
(09:06:15) red1: cos they have no reference
(09:06:25) red1: and they willing to visit any country
(09:06:37) red1: i ask china, singapore, latin am, US and UK
(09:06:47) red1: only Adaxa Australia has good case
(09:06:55) red1: but i think Germany is better venue
(09:07:01) red1: as there are more cases in General
(09:07:15) red1: both govt and ADempiere members.. though not on the same base
(09:07:25) red1: govt uses OSS but not ADempiere..
(09:07:34) red1: ADeV has strong localisation
(09:08:21) kai7: And I have a neighbour with lot of experience in the public sector. :-)
(09:09:15) red1: yes i also wrote to him
(09:09:25) red1: my first advice to the AG office is to write a letter to me in Berlin :D
(09:09:27) kai7: OK
(09:09:33) CarlosRuiz: ok - I see we have 7 tasks (some done) and 32 items on the wishlist - can we review the pending tasks
(09:09:39) red1: acknowledging advisory capacity to assist them
(09:09:47) kai7: Carlos -> yes
(09:09:53) red1: this opens way for official correspondence between ADeV and Govt of Malaysia
(09:10:01) red1: ok CarlosRuiz
(09:11:38) CarlosRuiz: #1 is an ongoing work - I haven't reviewed too much links lately
(09:12:37) CarlosRuiz: #2 and #3 are an interesting topic to discuss here - we can explore and advance on some guidelines - indeed I think we need some "general Adempiere usability guidelines"
(09:12:46) CarlosRuiz: #5 was done successfully
(09:12:54) CarlosRuiz: #4 and #6 are the same?
(09:13:27) kai7: Yes, seems so.
(09:13:52) kai7: red1 let us talk later about it.
(09:14:03) kai7: Now it's usablility time
(09:15:02) CarlosRuiz: ok - #4 hidden
(09:15:12) kai7: I just checked the log of the last session.
(09:15:15) CarlosRuiz: #7 in progress also
(09:15:44) kai7: There is one task I wanted to do: forum post - encourage publishing your usability things early in branches ... that's our next step
(09:15:56) kai7: Hm is #6?
(09:16:14) CarlosRuiz: can be part of
(09:16:38) CarlosRuiz: let's add it as specific task for followup
(09:17:08) CarlosRuiz: added - can you write such post Kai?
(09:19:43) kai7: Yes
(09:21:20) CarlosRuiz: So - I guess we have three important next tasks:
(09:21:20) CarlosRuiz: - prioritize the wishlist
(09:21:20) CarlosRuiz: - talk about usability guidelines
(09:21:20) CarlosRuiz: - the forum post trying to collect usability improvements from implementors
(09:21:20) CarlosRuiz: any other important task to annotate?
(09:22:39) kai7: I don't see one.
(09:23:38) CarlosRuiz: ok - which one to start - talk about usability guidelines?
(09:24:21) red1: i wonder whether usability can include reference issue?
(09:24:36) red1: for clients to refer on presales stage
(09:26:25) CarlosRuiz: I think I'm not understanding your point red1
(09:27:02) red1: i mean.. when a prospect first look at AD.. on usability issue.. they will first think about references
(09:27:15) red1: as we know.. we have implementations counter
(09:27:29) red1: we also regulating advertisments..
(09:27:35) CarlosRuiz: nope - usability is about the application
(09:27:52) red1: we should also regulate what is published about such
(09:28:11) red1: if we can give some guidelines related to usability angle
(09:28:25) red1: for example, "State what env is the app used for?"
(09:28:37) red1: "what is your user base?"
(09:28:45) red1: "How usable is it?"
(09:28:55) red1: 'user testimony'
(09:29:05) red1: just thinking aloud :>
(09:29:24) CarlosRuiz: IMHO that's out of scope of this group - what does Kai think?
(09:29:56) kai7: Sorry, I was just bothered with a problem we have right now here...
(09:31:32) red1: yes i think its a bit out of scope
(09:31:34) red1: sorry
(09:31:47) red1: but i will keep wondering where i can fit this question
(09:31:53) kai7: I guess it would be more a task for the ... website? group
(09:32:06) red1: we have a more pressing need of presales challenge
(09:32:27) red1: our content has that assumption that we are like a vendor
(09:32:32) red1: and product based
(09:32:42) red1: when Open Source is the very nature of the question
(09:32:42) CarlosRuiz: yes - but I think PMC is not about business - unfortunately the BDC failed
(09:32:49) red1: exactly
(09:32:58) CarlosRuiz: and we're product based
(09:33:03) red1: hm ok
(09:33:04) CarlosRuiz: Adempiere is a product
(09:33:17) CarlosRuiz: open source is a different way of production
(09:34:17) red1: i wonder whether usability is general or specific
(09:34:28) red1: as now i see country to country has different interpretations
(09:37:10) CarlosRuiz: I think usability is a common thing - the implementation can vary (i.e. translations, color preferences) - but the concept is common
(09:39:48) CarlosRuiz: we still have 20 minutes to go - if you agree we can start talking a little about general Adempiere usability guidelines - and if don't finish we continue with same topic next meeting
(09:40:12) kai7: Sorry again...
(09:40:16) red1: lets continue
(09:40:31) kai7: We have a problem here now I have to take care of.
(09:41:10) CarlosRuiz: no problem kai7, we can continue chatting about - you read then the meeting log and we continue the discussion next meeting
(09:41:37) kai7: OK, thank you very much
(09:42:18) CarlosRuiz: ok red1, trifon - about usability guidelines
(09:42:18) CarlosRuiz: we can start with the very basic and then trying to go deeper
(09:42:55) trifon: Carlos, i'm not sure what this quidelines look like what what all this means :(
(09:43:06) CarlosRuiz: very basic for example:
(09:43:06) CarlosRuiz: every element added must have properly filled the fields Description & Comment/Help
(09:43:18) CarlosRuiz: and we can define how to fill Description and Help
(09:43:22) red1: the HELP screen?
(09:43:26) trifon: what i understadn is that GUI usability guidlines prescribe how UI should look like.
(09:43:27) red1: yes ok
(09:43:35) CarlosRuiz: sometimes when creating an element you don't know how to fill any
(09:43:47) CarlosRuiz: yes - another example
(09:43:47) trifon: ok. this sounds good.
(09:43:50) CarlosRuiz: distribution of fields
(09:43:57) CarlosRuiz: client & org on the first line
(09:44:07) CarlosRuiz: the length of the Value column standarized in all windows
(09:44:08) CarlosRuiz: etc
(09:44:17) trifon: i see.
(09:44:21) trifon: this sounds really good.
(09:44:28) trifon: who is goind to write it :)
(09:44:36) trifon: i'm java dev not usability dev :)
(09:44:50) trifon: just to open my escape door
(09:44:54) CarlosRuiz: we can evolve them here - and I'll move them to wiki page for forum discussion
(09:45:00) trifon: let make wiki page with this.
(09:45:11) trifon: ok.
(09:45:48) CarlosRuiz: ok - then those are basic
(09:45:59) trifon: so we have Client, Organization. Organization must be at the same line as Client.
(09:46:40) trifon: Then we have Search Key (Value)
(09:46:50) red1: i appreciate such guidelines.. cos if i am developing anything i will use them
(09:46:52) trifon: One new line we have Name which usualy ocupy whole line.
(09:47:05) red1: i also like to ask about Functional guidelines
(09:47:05) trifon: After that IsActive.
(09:47:15) trifon: Description and after that Comment/Help
(09:47:17) red1: i.e. i detected from my Thai client they are stupid about somet stuff
(09:47:28) red1: they think that Complete is not good
(09:47:31) trifon: Red1, please do not mif both: UI and Funct.
(09:47:36) trifon: we talk abotu UI now.
(09:47:52) CarlosRuiz: OK - that sounds good Trifon, common distribution of windows
(09:47:54) red1: yes i am talking about how our Functionals are presented
(09:48:20) red1: hmm ok.. out of scope :>
(09:48:26) CarlosRuiz: the Value field must be above Name and half of the size?
(09:48:42) red1: what about the multi-column layout?
(09:48:48) red1: from MigLayout
(09:48:58) trifon: Carlos: yes. Value field above Name.
(09:49:54) trifon: One General Guidline: When we have Group and record belonging to the Group, then Group must be first. after that record on the same line.
(09:50:06) CarlosRuiz: seeding here --> http://www.adempiere.com/index.php/Usability_Guidelines
(09:50:09) trifon: Example: Sales ORder line: Product group, next field is Product.
(09:50:30) CarlosRuiz: good point
(09:50:44) trifon: this guidline is to say that Group must be placed before the object belonging to the group.
(09:50:55) trifon: that's it fromme.
(09:51:35) trifon: GridView layout. I think Tenant can be hidden.
(09:51:56) trifon: We can have guidline how to place columns in GridView.
(09:52:32) CarlosRuiz: hmmm - but we need to integrate your contribution VisibleFields
(09:52:42) CarlosRuiz: is it done?
(09:53:03) trifon: not yet.
(09:53:06) trifon: i'm working on it.
(09:53:18) CarlosRuiz: ok - let's wait for such guideline until we have the tool
(09:53:25) trifon: ok.
(09:53:30) CarlosRuiz: I agree in grid mode we can hide client - and org in some cases
(09:53:55) CarlosRuiz: ok Element description and help must be ALWAYS filled
(09:53:59) CarlosRuiz: but I have a doubt
(09:54:07) CarlosRuiz: what must go in description and what must go into help
(09:54:19) trifon: i have no idea :(
(09:54:28) trifon: here functional people can tell us more i think.
(09:55:10) CarlosRuiz: Let's write that description is a short phrase describing the usage of the field
(09:55:10) CarlosRuiz: and that help is a long description trying to explain the functionality
(09:55:22) CarlosRuiz: others can correct if we're wrong here
(09:55:32) trifon: yes sounds as good starting point.
(09:55:49) red1: i agree
(09:56:02) red1: HELP should anticipate what trouble the user is having
(09:56:11) CarlosRuiz: Another thing I would add - when adding a column, verify that the element description and help is correct for the column you're adding - if it's not then you must add a new element
(09:56:13) red1: that means the idiot does not understand at all
(09:56:23) trifon: help can describe some example.
(09:56:31) red1: thats nice
(09:56:33) trifon: and also include tips to avoid troubles.
(09:56:41) red1: FAQ stuff
(09:57:09) CarlosRuiz: added all your comments on the wiki page - you can refresh :-)
(09:57:27) trifon: i have to go now.
(09:57:36) CarlosRuiz: ok Trifon, thank you very much
(09:57:41) CarlosRuiz: it's time to end the meeting
(09:57:59) CarlosRuiz: we can continue this exercise in two weeks
(09:58:00) trifon: bye, will be online later.
(09:58:05) trifon has left the channel (quit: Quit: Leaving).
(09:58:07) red1: ok bye
(09:58:23) CarlosRuiz: thanks red1 for attending
(09:58:23) red1: leaving office for home.. its late here
(09:58:29) red1: my pleasure !
(09:58:36) red1: i am trying to match your record
(09:58:37) red1: :D
(09:58:43) red1: of course i cannot :P
(09:58:49) red1: cya later